User talk:Jallan
Hi, welcome to Quondam et Futurus! Thanks for your edit to the King Arthur page. Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Uberfuzzy (Talk) 19:30, 20 June 2009 Hi. It seems that Quondam Et doesn't have an administrator. I'd be willing to do the job (and the site could use a visual facelift at least) but you have senority and WAY more edits than me, so I'd totally defer to you or share the job too. I'm also messaging Grailseeker about it. Let me know. TheBoost (talk) 19:36, May 16, 2013 (UTC) You're totally right about the Balin/Balan error. I was thinking Malory, and just added the links without even double checking. One of the main benefits I see as an admin is to do various organizational moves, merge and retructure categories. The original writers of the Wiki made pages of lists, rather than catergories. Also, with admin rights, if there was a troubling editor damaging the site, you would be able to deal with them easily. I havent got around to asking for them yet, but if I get them, say the word and they are yours. I'd like your opinion on the Bors article. I made a short one, not recognizing at the time that Bohort was French for Bors Should the article use the French name, (with Bors redirecting to it) or the English name (with Bohort redirecting to Bors), or should they somehow remain seperate, like Peredur and Parceval? If you want to go to the work of getting admin powers, I would like to share them. I agree that it would make some things easier. My general rule was to use the earliest form of a name for the main entry, or the most common form. Then enter all the alternate forms as redirects. I appear to have messed up on Bors, if typing it did not produce a redirect to a disambiguation page. It should have redirected to the page Bors if things had worked properly which is itself contains links to the two separate characters in Arthurian literature named Bohort. When an English variant of a name is very popular or closer to the Welsh form, then I have used it as the main entry. Names which are not French include Kay, Arthur, Uther Pendragon, Bedwyr, Galahad, Howell, and possibly a few others. Bors is common enough that it might have been included in that list, but following my general rule I stuck with the French Bohort, even though the name appears as Bors in Lacy's translations which generally use French oblique forms for names. There is no one right translation of most of the names. But as my article Bohort of Gaunes is much longer and fuller than yours, if you wish to change the name in this case, you would have to also change all the various redirects to Bohort and change the form Bors to Bohort in various other existing articles. I suggest it may be better, and will certainly be easier, to change your article Bors into a redirect and merge anything that might seem to need it into my article. This seems to have been done now. But in this case I don't care much if someone wants to do the work of changing. Another general rule I had was to use the shortest possible form of the name as the main entry. Only when the same name appears for more than one person in Arthurian literature have I used a name longer than the short name as the main entry to make the distinction between the names at article entry level. I could have included both Bohort of Gaunes and Bohort the elder as the names of separate persons within the same article. But I decided not to do that. Perceval is differentiated from Peredur because there were at least three separate Peredurs in Arthurian legend, and only the one I have called Peredur Longspear is equated with the French Perceval in Welsh tradition. Complete articles on all three currently exist only in my mind. The article on Peredur Longspear only covers purely Welsh details. I intend this on various other Welsh characters, for example an article on Owein Rheged separate from Yvain and on Urien Rheged separate from Urien (King) to distinguish the historical Owein and his father Urien who flourished following the Arthurian period from their Arthurian counterparts Yvain and Urien. None of these articles have yet been written. The articles will all indicate that Owein and Yvain and the two Uriens were probably originally identical. On the other hand I have written a single article on Tristan's father whatever his name in various texts under the title Meliodus of Leonois and intend eventually to do the same for Perceval's father using the title Pellinor. See my article Morcades for Gawain's mother under various different names. The intent is one article for each Arthurian person, regardless of differences of names, except when there are texts which appear to differentiate them. Jallan (talk) 20:53, May 22, 2013 (UTC) I will try my best to follow the naming convention's you are following, although my reading doesn't extend much earlier than Malory (and I started my love of Arthuriana with Wagner). I deleted Bors and redirected to Bohors. TheBoost (talk) 21:15, May 22, 2013 (UTC) Manual of Style, Erec/Geraint, The front page now has a "Manual of Style." I adapted it from our conversation about naming rules. Feel free to add anything else you think should go in the manual. We don't have a page on Geraint. I've never read "Erec et Enid" but is Erec the same character as Geraint, who marries Enid in "Idylls?" I'm adding some info on Geraint to the Erec page, on my assumption they count as the same character. Let me know if you disagree. TheBoost (talk) 19:38, June 9, 2013 (UTC) Gereint in the Mabinogion story "Gereint son of Erbin' is obviously identical to Chrétien de Troyes Erec son of Lac. The story is the same. And many of the names are the same. Gereint battles Edern son of Nudd instead of Chrétien's Yder son of Nut and marries Enid instead of Enide. No-one has been able to find any Welsh etymology that explains the name Enid. Gereint later becomes friends with the Little King who is said to be known in French as Gwiffred Petit while Erec becomes friends with the dwarfish Guivret le Petit. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erec, http://omacl.org/Erec/erec1.html, and http://kingarthur.wikia.com/wiki/Erec_et_Enide. Erec son of Lac appears in Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur in Book X, chapter 53 as Harry le Fise Lake. I think your article on Gereint would be better as the beginning for an article on Erec. Erec appears in the Post-Vulgate as a friend of Hector. Erec dies in Arthur's last battle against Mordred in the Middle-English Alliterative Morte Arthure. Erec kills his own sister to fulfill a promise and is slain by Gawain in the Grail Quest in the Post-Vulgate. In Wolfram von Eschenbach's Parzival Erec's sister, possibly not the same sister, is Jeschute the wife of Orilus of Lalander who is the counterpart of the Proud One of the Glade li Orgueillous de la Lande in other early Peceval poems. In the first version of the Prose Tristan Erec, aided by Galahad, Bliobleheris, and Hector, slays Senehar, the enemy of his hostess Enide, and takes her to wife. Seemingly the author knew from references somewhere that Erec was married to Enide but did not know Chrétien's story so he invented his own tale. Similarly in the Post-Vulgate Erec, when unarmed protests when a knight is mistreating a damsel. The knight then whips him in the face. Later, Erec is armed and defeats the knight who is named Montenart. This looks like an author who has come across a reference to Chrétien's story and has invented his own tale to fit the references. Yder/Edern is only specifically called the "Knight of the Sparrowhawk" in Tennyson's poem. In my opinion articles on Owein Rheged, Peredur Longspear, and Gereint son of Erbin should exist, but should only deal with features that are specific to the Welsh character, for example that Gereint is Arthur's cousin, son of Erbin son of Custennin Arthur's uncle and his connection with Cornwall, material that may have been part of traditional details about Gereint before he was identified with Chrétien's Erec. Then just mention that the story ascribed to Gereint son of Erbin in the Mabinogion identifies him with Erec son of Lac. Similarly the article on Erec would mention that Erec's story appears in Welsh tradition applied to Gereint son of Erbin. The name Erec appears to be a French version of Breton Guerec, the probable origin of the name Erec. The Welsh teller seems to have felt that the name Gereint with both a g and an r was close enough to identify them. The Welsh also know of another Gereint, Gereint Carnwys, who appears in the Welsh translations of Geoffry as identical to Geoffrey's Guerin of Chartres. At least one of these translations calls him Gereint Carnwys son of Erbin. I suspect that this is the result of an author confusing Gereints. To ascribe material from the Post-Vulgate and Prose Tristan to Gereint feels just wrong. Like saying that the knight Parzival became an assistant to Galahad in the later grail quest stories. That the city in which Gereint battles Edern is Cardiff is only found in the Mabinogion story "Gereint son of Erbin". Jallan (talk) 01:32, June 10, 2013 (UTC) Thanks for the advice. I'll keep that in mind as I rework the article, also as I read 'erec et enid' for the first time. I'm having a blast and learning so much working on this. Hey there. I'm trying to make an article for the film "Excalibur" that traces where the ideas and plot points the film mix and matches come from (like how Arthur simultaneously delivers the Dolorous Stroke and reenacts Pelleas finding Gawain with Ettare). In the film young Arthur gives Excalibur/Sword in the Stone to Uriens, so that Uriens can knight him, because it would be dishonorable to surrender to a squire. Since you're extremely well read on this, do you have an idea where that might originally come from, or do you suppose it was original to the filmmaker? Thanks TheBoost (talk) 00:55, November 9, 2013 (UTC) I don’t have a great memory now of much of the film “Excalibur”. I never thought of Gawain and Ettare in respect to Lancelot and Guenevere, with Arthur taking on the role of Pellias. Perhaps because nothing else in Pellias’ story fits well with the situation of Arthur and Guenevere. As to Uryens, my understanding is that Tennyson replaces Malory’s Rience with the similar name Uriens because it seemed to him to scan better, not for any other reason. But the two kings are not much alike save for being for a time, enemies of Arthur, in some stories. In the “Vulgate Merlin”, whence in Malory, Rience or Rions battles against King Leodegans, until Arthur comes to Leodegans’ aid. But in no source that I recall, and I believe I recall everything in that area, does Arthur battle against Rience of Uriens as a squire nor does either Uriens or Rience/Rions knight Arthur. In making Uriens the enemy of Leodegans and having Arthur come to his aid, John Boorman appears to be drawing on Tennyson but the other details about King Uriens appear to be John Boorman’s own invention. Though the “Prose Lancelot” mentions that Arthur won the hand of Queen Guenevere from her father when he served at King Leodegans’ court disguised as a squire. See http://books.google.ca/books?id=aQSkzRstpJYC&lpg=PP1&pg=PP1&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false , page 14, which refers to a version of Arthur’s winning of Guenevere not found elsewhere. But I doubt that Boorman even knew of this partly told tale. --Jallan (talk) 03:12, November 9, 2013 (UTC) Thanks. TheBoost (talk) 22:27, November 9, 2013 (UTC) Happy New Year, I'm starting production soon on a podcast audio drama about King Arthur and pals. I wonder if you'd care to be involved in some fashion- if you're not the artistic type, perhaps you'd be interested in checking out the scripts as a "historical consultant." I'm taking fairly fast and loose from different aspects of the legend, from Nennius to TH White (and I love me some Tennyson), but I plan to end each episode with a brief speech about WHERE the bits of legend in that episode came from, how they relate, different eras (Victorian, Romances, Pseudo-histories) and what not. Let me know if you'd be interested. No worries if not. TheBoost (talk) 20:21, December 31, 2013 (UTC)